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Mixed vs. Native/2003 for trusts w/ legacy NT

 
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Rich Roller

External


Since: Nov 05, 2003
Posts: 19



(Msg. 1) Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2003 6:35 pm
Post subject: Mixed vs. Native/2003 for trusts w/ legacy NT
Archived from groups: microsoft>public>windows>server>active_directory, others (more info?)

(Sorry to cross-post this... I wasn't sure which was the best
place)

I'm doing a migration from *single* NT domain to WS2003 AD with a
customer of 250 seats. Nobody wants to do an in-place upgrade of
PDC, etc. We are heading for doing a migration using ADMT from NT
to a new, separate AD just being setup.

My big question is: Is this a good plan? A few people (e.g. Mark
Minasi) recommend this way but most of the docs I find are on
in-place upgrades.

My current dilemma/question is: Can I put the new AD into
functional mode "Windows Server 2003" (domain and forest) and not
lose anything significant with NT-side compatibility?

For example, I read that ADMT will only migrate NT SID histories
if AD is in 2000Native or WS2003 mode, and it seems like having
SID histories might be helpful. And from what I can tell my
two-way trusts between NT & AD will work regardless of whether AD
is mixed or native/2003, right?

The only thing I've seen that's negative is that if AD is in
native/2003 then the old clients (Win9x/NT) will have to run the
AD Client software in order see (and auth with) AD properly. I
have no experience w/ the AD Client... is it seamless/painless?

Is there anything else that I might lose if I have AD in 2003
mode? (We're thinking of raising the functional level TOMORROW!)

Note that for fallback reasons they want to to keep their NT
domain just as is: BDC's & PDC in place, and rely on trusts
between NT & AD to intercommunicate. But they won't want to keep
two parallel SAM's in synch (manually?) for too long once they've
migrated using ADMT so they would start phasing out NT stuff (e.g.
unjoining member server from NT and joining to AD)

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Rich Roller

 >> Stay informed about: Mixed vs. Native/2003 for trusts w/ legacy NT 
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Steven Liu

External


Since: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 258



(Msg. 2) Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 7:22 am
Post subject: RE: Mixed vs. Native/2003 for trusts w/ legacy NT [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: microsoft>public>windows>server>migration (more info?)

Hi Rich,

In-place upgrade in this senario is better.

If you choose to in-place upgrade, the other NT4 BDC still can work with
the Windows 2003 active directory.

And from what I can tell my two-way trusts between NT & AD will work
regardless of whether AD is mixed or native/2003, right?

Yes, this is correct. Therefore, if you want to use the ADMT, the target
domain must work in native mode.

The 9x client needs to install the AD client software. I think it's should
be seamless.

Anyway, I checked the whole newwork environment, I think the in-place
upgrade is the best way. You can upgrade the PDC first and then upgrade
these BDCs one by one.

Please backup the PDC and BDC before doing the upgrading.

Thanks for using Microsoft News Group!

Sincerely,

Steven Liu

Microsoft Online Partner Support

MCSE 2000

Get Secure! - www.microsoft.com/security

This posting is provided "as is" with no warranties and confers no rights.

 >> Stay informed about: Mixed vs. Native/2003 for trusts w/ legacy NT 
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Rich Roller

External


Since: Nov 06, 2003
Posts: 45



(Msg. 3) Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 7:37 am
Post subject: Re: Mixed vs. Native/2003 for trusts w/ legacy NT [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Steven, thanks for your reply. See my comments in-line below...

""Steven Liu"" <stevenl.RemoveThis@online.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:NuaNuaDpDHA.2464@cpmsftngxa06.phx.gbl...
> Hi Rich,
>
> In-place upgrade in this senario is better.

I'm still leaning towards doing an ADMT/migration instead of
in-place upgrade, for the reasons mentioned in my first post. Do
you know of people (smallish shop like the one I'm migrating, 250
users) who have done that successfully? IOW, ADMT works fairly
reliably?

> If you choose to in-place upgrade, the other NT4 BDC still can
work with
> the Windows 2003 active directory.
>
> And from what I can tell my two-way trusts between NT & AD will
work
> regardless of whether AD is mixed or native/2003, right?
>
> Yes, this is correct. Therefore, if you want to use the ADMT,
the target
> domain must work in native mode.

From the MS KB articles I couldn't find anything that said ADMT in
general only works if target is in native... the only thing I
found is that SIDHistory specifically doesn't work unless target
is in native. Does that sound right?

> The 9x client needs to install the AD client software. I think
it's should
> be seamless.
>
> Anyway, I checked the whole newwork environment, I think the
in-place
> upgrade is the best way. You can upgrade the PDC first and then
upgrade
> these BDCs one by one.
>
> Please backup the PDC and BDC before doing the upgrading.
>
> Thanks for using Microsoft News Group!
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Steven Liu
>
> Microsoft Online Partner Support
>
> MCSE 2000
>
> Get Secure! - www.microsoft.com/security
>
> This posting is provided "as is" with no warranties and confers
no rights.
>
 >> Stay informed about: Mixed vs. Native/2003 for trusts w/ legacy NT 
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Scott Harding - MS MVP

External


Since: Nov 14, 2003
Posts: 2



(Msg. 4) Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 8:50 am
Post subject: Re: Mixed vs. Native/2003 for trusts w/ legacy NT [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: microsoft>public>windows>server>active_directory, others (more info?)

I have done dozens of 'upgrades' and had very few issues. This is really the
best method to upgrade as it keeps everything in tact and ADMT is a little
tougher, and longer to deal with to get everything the way you want it. What
I typically do is to introduce a new BDC onto the NT domain, this can be any
machine that runs NT but consider something with a little horsepower(RAM)
because this will ultimately be your 1st Win2k machine. Then promote it to
PDC and demote your current PDC. Once this is complete and replication looks
good then upgrade this new PDC to WIndowds 2000 and Active Directory. This
new machine will now have the AD and the old NT4 Domain Controllers will be
none the wiser that anything has changed. This way is for some reason the
'upgrade' fails and the machine Blue Screens you can just promote your
original NT4 PDC back to a PDC and everything is back to NT and no machines
even know that there was a failed upgrade. This is much faster and easier
than the ADMT. I only use the ADMT when there are issues with domain names
that need to be changed or we are using a test domain first or will be
consolidating domains. What you are describing sounds like a whole lot of
extra work that I don't feel needs to be done. You don't want to deal with
Trusts and managing them and SID's etc. I know what you mean about the
'nobody wanting to do upgrades' but this really does work quite well.

--
Scott Harding
MCSE, MCSA, A+, Network+
Microsoft MVP - Windows NT Server

scrockel@***No_SPAM***hotmail.com
"Rich Roller" <rich_roller@*REMOVE-THIS*whitney.org> wrote in message
news:OSp%23UU$oDHA.372@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> (Sorry to cross-post this... I wasn't sure which was the best
> place)
>
> I'm doing a migration from *single* NT domain to WS2003 AD with a
> customer of 250 seats. Nobody wants to do an in-place upgrade of
> PDC, etc. We are heading for doing a migration using ADMT from NT
> to a new, separate AD just being setup.
>
> My big question is: Is this a good plan? A few people (e.g. Mark
> Minasi) recommend this way but most of the docs I find are on
> in-place upgrades.
>
> My current dilemma/question is: Can I put the new AD into
> functional mode "Windows Server 2003" (domain and forest) and not
> lose anything significant with NT-side compatibility?
>
> For example, I read that ADMT will only migrate NT SID histories
> if AD is in 2000Native or WS2003 mode, and it seems like having
> SID histories might be helpful. And from what I can tell my
> two-way trusts between NT & AD will work regardless of whether AD
> is mixed or native/2003, right?
>
> The only thing I've seen that's negative is that if AD is in
> native/2003 then the old clients (Win9x/NT) will have to run the
> AD Client software in order see (and auth with) AD properly. I
> have no experience w/ the AD Client... is it seamless/painless?
>
> Is there anything else that I might lose if I have AD in 2003
> mode? (We're thinking of raising the functional level TOMORROW!)
>
> Note that for fallback reasons they want to to keep their NT
> domain just as is: BDC's & PDC in place, and rely on trusts
> between NT & AD to intercommunicate. But they won't want to keep
> two parallel SAM's in synch (manually?) for too long once they've
> migrated using ADMT so they would start phasing out NT stuff (e.g.
> unjoining member server from NT and joining to AD)
>
> Thanks in advance for any advice.
>
> Rich Roller
>
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Mixed vs. Native/2003 for trusts w/ legacy NT 
Back to top
Login to vote
Rich Roller

External


Since: Nov 05, 2003
Posts: 19



(Msg. 5) Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 12:35 pm
Post subject: Re: Mixed vs. Native/2003 for trusts w/ legacy NT [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Thanks Scott for your thoughts. I'm definitely mulling over which
way to go, i.e.:
IN-PLACE vs. ADMT/Migration
MIXED vs NATIVE/2003 mode (& DSClient)

Other than perhaps being more work, are there any issues, problems
or horror stories with ADMT or DSCLIENT that come to mind?

-Rich

"Scott Harding - MS MVP" <scrockel@**NOSPAM**hotmail.com> wrote in
message news:eEigo4HpDHA.360@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> I have done dozens of 'upgrades' and had very few issues. This
is really the
> best method to upgrade as it keeps everything in tact and ADMT
is a little
> tougher, and longer to deal with to get everything the way you
want it. What
> I typically do is to introduce a new BDC onto the NT domain,
this can be any
> machine that runs NT but consider something with a little
horsepower(RAM)
> because this will ultimately be your 1st Win2k machine. Then
promote it to
> PDC and demote your current PDC. Once this is complete and
replication looks
> good then upgrade this new PDC to WIndowds 2000 and Active
Directory. This
> new machine will now have the AD and the old NT4 Domain
Controllers will be
> none the wiser that anything has changed. This way is for some
reason the
> 'upgrade' fails and the machine Blue Screens you can just
promote your
> original NT4 PDC back to a PDC and everything is back to NT and
no machines
> even know that there was a failed upgrade. This is much faster
and easier
> than the ADMT. I only use the ADMT when there are issues with
domain names
> that need to be changed or we are using a test domain first or
will be
> consolidating domains. What you are describing sounds like a
whole lot of
> extra work that I don't feel needs to be done. You don't want to
deal with
> Trusts and managing them and SID's etc. I know what you mean
about the
> 'nobody wanting to do upgrades' but this really does work quite
well.
>
> --
> Scott Harding
> MCSE, MCSA, A+, Network+
> Microsoft MVP - Windows NT Server
>
> scrockel@***No_SPAM***hotmail.com
> "Rich Roller" <rich_roller@*REMOVE-THIS*whitney.org> wrote in
message
> news:OSp%23UU$oDHA.372@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> > (Sorry to cross-post this... I wasn't sure which was the best
> > place)
> >
> > I'm doing a migration from *single* NT domain to WS2003 AD
with a
> > customer of 250 seats. Nobody wants to do an in-place upgrade
of
> > PDC, etc. We are heading for doing a migration using ADMT
from NT
> > to a new, separate AD just being setup.
> >
> > My big question is: Is this a good plan? A few people (e.g.
Mark
> > Minasi) recommend this way but most of the docs I find are on
> > in-place upgrades.
> >
> > My current dilemma/question is: Can I put the new AD into
> > functional mode "Windows Server 2003" (domain and forest) and
not
> > lose anything significant with NT-side compatibility?
> >
> > For example, I read that ADMT will only migrate NT SID
histories
> > if AD is in 2000Native or WS2003 mode, and it seems like
having
> > SID histories might be helpful. And from what I can tell my
> > two-way trusts between NT & AD will work regardless of whether
AD
> > is mixed or native/2003, right?
> >
> > The only thing I've seen that's negative is that if AD is in
> > native/2003 then the old clients (Win9x/NT) will have to run
the
> > AD Client software in order see (and auth with) AD properly.
I
> > have no experience w/ the AD Client... is it
seamless/painless?
> >
> > Is there anything else that I might lose if I have AD in 2003
> > mode? (We're thinking of raising the functional level
TOMORROW!)
> >
> > Note that for fallback reasons they want to to keep their NT
> > domain just as is: BDC's & PDC in place, and rely on trusts
> > between NT & AD to intercommunicate. But they won't want to
keep
> > two parallel SAM's in synch (manually?) for too long once
they've
> > migrated using ADMT so they would start phasing out NT stuff
(e.g.
> > unjoining member server from NT and joining to AD)
> >
> > Thanks in advance for any advice.
> >
> > Rich Roller
> >
> >
> >
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Mixed vs. Native/2003 for trusts w/ legacy NT 
Back to top
Login to vote
Steven Liu

External


Since: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 258



(Msg. 6) Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2003 5:04 am
Post subject: Re: Mixed vs. Native/2003 for trusts w/ legacy NT [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: microsoft>public>windows>server>migration (more info?)

Hi Rich,

I'm still leaning towards doing an ADMT/migration instead of in-place
upgrade, for the reasons mentioned in my first post. Do you know of people
(smallish shop like the one I'm migrating, 250 users) who have done that
successfully? IOW, ADMT works fairly reliably?

Yes, ADMT still works well. Therefore, if you use the ADMT, the domain name
is changed. This is the disadvantage of the ADMT.

From the MS KB articles I couldn't find anything that said ADMT in general
only works if target is in native... the only thing I found is that
SIDHistory specifically doesn't work unless target is in native. Does that
sound right?

No, if you use the ADMT, the target domain must be in the native mode. It's
the request of the ADMT and it's by design.

Thanks for using Microsoft News Group!

Sincerely,

Steven Liu

Microsoft Online Partner Support

MCSE 2000

Get Secure! - www.microsoft.com/security

This posting is provided "as is" with no warranties and confers no rights.
 >> Stay informed about: Mixed vs. Native/2003 for trusts w/ legacy NT 
Back to top
Login to vote
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